What Happens If You Hit a Cable

1:16Hello everyone, welcome. Welcome to the light show. Just give it a couple of, um, minutes, guys. We're about 2 minutes to. Um, just so everyone gets a chance to get in the room. So, I'm just going to pop my video off for a second, guys, but, um, talk amongst yourselves. Won't be long.

3:26Good afternoon, everyone. It's 4:00, so it's time to, time to start the show. Hopefully, you can all see me and, and hear me okay. Anybody been on the sessions during today? It's been a long day today, but quite a few, few bits going on today. These sessions that we put on at 4:00 were designed to catch people that, uh, were still working during the day and couldn't jump on, so they're always a little bit quieter, not as many numbers on them, which, um, isn't, isn't a bad thing.

4:02I think we've got as many as, as are coming in, guys.

4:24Okay, guys, we'll, we'll, we'll get going then. Um, it's quite a short one this afternoon, you'll, you'll be glad to know. I think I've met most of you before now, guys. We've run so many of these, I think you've been on most of the sessions. I don't know if anybody's, um, here for the first time. Give me a shout if you are. So, so, so, I'll keep the intros very, very, very brief. My, I'm Pete Ashcroft from Sygma, and we, we specialize in utility location training. And we've been running a series of webinars, and they're, they're basically snippets from the courses that we run. So, not a full session, just, just little sections, um, of, of, of the courses that, that we run. Uh, the one today is entitled, "What happens if you hit a cable?" And that's what we're going to talk about. Uh, we're going to talk about the differences between overhead cables and underground cables, um, show you some examples of both being hit, and talk about the dangers working around cables.

5:16Looking at the audience that we've got, we have a mixture of utility surveyors and a mixture of people that are involved in excavations. So, for the utility surveyors, um, understand that this section of the course is aimed at the guys that are performing excavations. So, it's a section that we use to show them how dangerous it is working around them. So, it's aimed at that kind of audience, but I'm sure you guys will benefit from it as well, being utility surveyors. It'll hopefully give you an understanding of how important it is the work that you do.

5:46So, that's the context it's, it's aimed at. Little bit about the software, still getting to grips with it, excuse me. Um, it seems to be working reasonably well. The, the only downside is there's a slight delay. So, what you're hearing now, I said about 10 seconds ago. Um, I like to keep the sessions interactive, and I encourage you to ask questions, and, and please do say if there's something I talk about that you don't understand, and it will allow me to expand on it. But because of the delay, there'll be a few pauses in between, as I'll have to chuck you a question and then, and then wait for your, for your answer to come back. So, I hope you understand that. When we run these as real events, uh, paid-for events, the numbers are a lot less, um, and the delay is, is not as bad, but when we've got big numbers on, we get that little bit of a delay on it.

6:33And without further ado, we'll make a start. So, hopefully now, I've shrunk, and you can see my screen. So, this is the section that comes from, the part of, the course that we talk about reasons why we use, uh, cable locators. And as you can see by the screen there, guys, there are, there are many reasons why we use them. Um, and I'm guessing, looking at the audience that we've got here today, you, you'll have different reasons between you of, of why you use cable locators. The one that we'll concentrate on today, and the one that I believe is the most important, is the safety aspect of it. The, the main reason why we use a cable locator when we're excavating is to protect us from, from being injured of an underground cable. Um, only by detecting them can we, can we then avoid them, hopefully, and prevent injury. So, that's what we're trying to do, is to prevent injury.

7:10The one that we'll concentrate on today and the one that I believe is the most important is the safety aspect of it. The main reason why we use a cable locator when we're excavating is to protect us from being injured of an underground cable. Only by detecting them can we then avoid them, hopefully, and prevent injury. So that's what we're trying to do is to prevent injury or death.

7:34If you hit an electricity cable, you can get injured or even killed off it. I'm sure everybody in here understands that. One question I do want to ask you guys just to chuck in there is what injuries do you think you would receive if you hit an underground cable? What do you think would happen to you? And just while you're answering that, guys, I'm just going to turn this air conditioning unit off because it's...

8:07While you're answering that question, hopefully I've given you a long enough delay there, I'm going to just show you this picture. I'm sure this picture will be familiar to some of you. For those that haven't seen it before, it's a picture taken from the front cover of HSG47. HSG47 is the HSE guidelines on avoiding danger from underground services. Yeah, I've got some answers coming through there, guys. Some interesting ones.

8:37So this is the, this is the picture on the, on the guidance document from the HSE. But the picture itself was actually taken from an, an old video. It was, it was a very old video called Alive or Dead. I don't know if anybody's ever seen that video before. It was done in the probably early '80s. And on the video, this is actually a dummy and they, they strap a dummy onto a jackhammer and they remote control it through a cable to show you the kind of blast that you can get. It was a low-voltage cable as well, that, guys. If you look closely as well at the bottom here, you can, you can just about make out the cable going in there. So it was a real, genuine explosion off an underground low-voltage cable.

9:13There has been companies that have done it since, since this. There's been a few events where they, where they, where they replicated this. But as far as I'm aware, when they've done it, they've, they've used explosives. So they've simulated the explosion rather than it being a real one. So I always like this picture because it was a real, genuine cable explosion. And if you imagine the injuries that you would associate with that kind of explosion, you'd be looking at burns, blast, and, and other types of explosive injuries.

9:44One of the things that is very rare of underground cables, extremely rare, is electrocution on the initial strike, on the initial impact of that cable. I can honestly tell you that 20 years of doing nothing but this and teaching on this subject and being involved in locators, I, I don't think I've come across a genuine example of someone that's been electrocuted through hitting an underground cable. I've seen lots of headlines where the headline says the worker has been electrocuted, but when you look into the details, it's usually burns and blast injuries that they suffer from. So it's not, it's not often people are electrocuted. It's the explosion we need to be more aware of.

10:26The reason that I mention that is there's, there's been an increase in the use of insulated hand tools and an increase in the emphasis that we put on insulated hand tools. So we're talking about things like this, insulated shovels and bars and things. And, and my concern is that we, we push the use of these, but we don't educate people enough about what they will and won't protect them from. Insulated tools will protect us against electrocution, but they will not protect us against a burn and an explosion. And that's the more likely thing that's going to happen to us.

11:02I see it now with, with, with younger guys. I've done some work with some apprentices and they genuinely do believe that because they're using this type of equipment that if they hit a cable with it, they're going to be safe. And they're not. If you, if you look back at this picture, guys, I'm sure you'll agree with me that an insulated shovel or bar is not going to do much to protect you against the blast from that. So, so just to be clear, guys, I'm not saying don't use them. I'm not saying they're useless. I'm just saying that we need to understand what they will and won't protect us from. And the explosion, they won't stop it happening and they won't stop us getting burnt from it.

11:37I think the other thing that we need to also make sure is that we teach people the voltage they're rated to. Some of the tools I was looking at recently were rated to 10,000 volts flash, which I think is probably the highest you can get. But you look at some of the HV cables out there, they tend to start at 11 kV and above. You do get some 6s and stuff, but... So we need to educate people in the use of this type of equipment, in particular, what they will and what won't protect them against.

12:03What I don't want you to do though, guys, is take my word for it. Okay, I want to try and give you the science behind it, if you like, the, the reason why we get this explosive effect off an underground cable and also to try and show you the reason why electrocution is less likely. And for me to do that, I, I want to explain to you the difference between overhead cables and underground cables. So, another quick question, guys. I think when we asked about the underground cables, I think most of you talked about burns and explosions and things. What injuries do you think you would get if you touched an overhead cable? What, what do you think would happen to you? What would the difference be on an overhead?

12:41And also what I want you to consider as well, if we look back at this picture, whoops, I'm on the wrong way. We, I, I call this on here, if I can get it up again, here we go, the volcano effect. When we hit an underground cable, we, we tend to get this eruption of flame and fire and it's quite prolonged as well when, when it happens. Sometimes it sounds like a jet engine going off when, when you watch some of these videos. So we get this prolonged volcano effect, this eruption of fire. We don't tend to get that on overhead cables. You might see the, the lightning bolt effect arcing across, but you don't tend to get this same prolonged blast of fire.

13:23There's a big delay on it this evening, guys. It's not normally as bad as this. Either that or you're ignoring my, um, my question. We'll see. Are you, you're also there, guys? You're still, still with me, okay?

13:41So just, just to be clear and to recap where we are, guys. I, I can't see any answers coming in yet, but I'm just going to, going to carry on. When we make contact with an overhead cable, we tend to get, um, electrocuted, um, um, often killed. Um, when we make contact with an underground cable, it tends to be more burns and, and, and blast-related explosions. And with an underground cable, as I said, we get this, this volcano effect. So there's, there's differences between the two. And let's look at why that is. Now, there was a warning when you signed up for this webinar, guys, that it would contain graphic content. Um, and you're still here. Um, so, but I just want to reiterate that, guys. There is some graphic content coming up, which will be people being electrocuted and burnt and examples of cable strikes. So if anybody does want to disconnect, please do. If you are working from home and watching this, guys, just again, make sure you've got no kids in the room with you. Um, you have been warned. You might have seen some of these before as well, guys.

14:20So if anybody just wants to disconnect, please do. If you are working from home and watching this, guys, just again make sure you've got no kids in the room with you. Um, you have been warned. You might have seen some of these before as well, guys.

15:06Not a nice video at all, guys. He's obviously been killed there. Uh, it isn't a nice video, but again, it reminds us of the dangers of these cables, overheads as well. More people killed on overheads than underground cables, even though we can see them and they're not and they're not buried.

15:21Uh, just another one for you, guys. You might have seen this one before. There is no sound on this one, guys, if you're wondering why there's no sound on it. So, what I want you to consider here, guys, is why was he electrocuted? What did he do?

15:37And and to to kind of explain where I'm going with this, what would happen if a bird landed on that power line? Would the bird get electrocuted? So, think about the difference between what he's done and what a bird would would do if they landed on it. And also think about, you know, if you could fly. You could fly and and touch it, would you still get electrocuted? What's the difference that we're getting at here?

16:03Yeah, cool. Looks like the delay's sorted itself out now. Yeah.

16:12So, the reason we get electrocuted is, and it looks like you've kind of you've got this, guys, is that the current is basically passing through you to get to ground. Yeah? That's why he's doing it. That's why a bird can land on an overhead power line. Okay? It's getting to ground. The other interesting thing about electricity is that it will take the path of least resistance. Okay? The better That's why we have lightning conductors and things. And And, guys, if you've done the Genny sessions with me, we talked a lot, you might remember on there, we talked about the path of least resistance and things, because again, the Genny signal's just an electrical current.

16:35Okay, same on the high-end DM session, we talked about this morning. But, as we said, it will take the easiest path. Okay? What's the easiest path? So, I'm just going to turn my screen share off a second, just so I can get you on full video and just show you something. And And some of you may have heard this story before.

16:50Um, there was a a young lad quite a few years ago, and you can see me there, and he picked up a a long metal flagpole off the floor. And he picked up this flagpole, and he's levered it upright. And as he went up with the pole, he hit an overhead cable. Luckily for him, that pole was touching the floor. He was levering it off the off the off the floor. So, the current went straight down the pole. It burnt his hands quite badly, but it didn't kill him. Okay?

17:23But do understand that if he'd have lifted that pole off the floor, if there was a gap between the pole and the floor, that current would have gone, the whole of it would have gone through his body, and it probably would have killed him. Does that make sense to everyone, guys? Do Do you understand that? Again, just give me a bit of feedback on that. This is the one of the problems with webinars is you can't see people's faces, so I can't see whether you you look confused, asleep, looks like you're understanding, so. Hopefully, that makes sense to everyone. Great stuff.

18:02So, on a on a similar note to that then, let's let's let's just take that on a little bit more. Just get my presentation ready again, guys.

18:15You again, you may you may have seen this one. This was in um in China. Scaffolding. Now, they're watching this video and the scaffolding comes into shot. What you'll see is on the four corners, it's on rubber wheels. So, in other words, the scaffolding itself is not in contact with the floor. It's insulated from ground. The only thing making contact between the scaffolding and the floor is is the people that are pushing it. And as you can see, they've all been electrocuted.

18:41It looks like it's frozen there, guys, but it's it's still it's still playing that.

19:02The guy on the left who hangs on the longest, he's actually the only one that manages to get up from this. But can you see that if the scaffolding was actually on the floor, the metalwork was touching the floor, that current would have had a better route, really? Sorry, guys, just excuse me a second.

19:36Just going to fast-forward it, guys. So, this guy on the left, he was down there for 2 minutes. Uh, just watch what happens next. Oh, hang on. He manages to get up from that. Watch what he does, though. And he still survives it. You'll see him get up in a minute and and run off.

20:06If you go back to the beginning, if you watch him here, keep watching his feet, you'll see the the the electricity come through his feet into into ground. Hopefully, you can see that there. I'm not sure how good the video quality is coming through your end.

20:31So, what I was trying to establish there in quite a graphic way, I admit, excuse me, is that electrocution occurs when the the electrical current passes through your body to ground, okay? However, what we've also tried to establish is if there's an alternative path of lesser resistance available, the current will take that instead. Would you all agree with that? Okay? Those two two first statements. Hopefully, you do, or we're going to have to rewind and explain it again, so. Let's now take that theory then, that that hopefully we're all agreed on, and apply that to underground cables. Look at some examples of underground cables. Look at some of the differences. So, at the top here, we've got low-voltage cables, and at the bottom, we've got we've got high-voltage cables.

21:21There's no two cables exactly the same on that on that slide. They're all they're all slightly different. And again, remember, guys, this is UK-based. There might be differences in in other countries. Uh, but if we if we look at that, we'll we'll see subtle differences between them. But they've all got one thing in common, guys. Every cable has it. So, if we look here, this piece of metal here, guys. And I want you to tell me what you think that is. What is that called? This sheet of metal, if you like, underneath the outer insulation. And I've got

21:30If we look at that, we'll see subtle differences between them. But they've all got one thing in common, guys. Every cable has it. So if we look here, this piece of metal here, guys. And I want you to tell me what you think that is. What is that called? This sheet of metal, if you like, underneath the outer insulation. And I've got some real examples I'm going to go and grab while you answer that question.

22:10So you should have me back in full screen, guys. Can you see this one here? This is a, a HV cable that's been hit. And inside here, we've got the three phases. I'm not going to get oil all over my touch screen, but there's again, there's a, I don't know if you can see it, there's a metal sheath around the outside on that big, big cable there.

22:28I have a smaller one here that's fell under my desk. You can see the same thing here, guys. So this, this is single core. This is the bit where the electricity is, and then we've got this bit. Okay.

22:45No, it is called the earth, guys. Some of you said armored shielding. Same kind of thing, but just remember that modern cables aren't technically armored the same as they used to be, but they still have the earth in it. So that is the actual earth. You'd have live, earth, and neutral. That's the earth of the cable right on the outside. So every, every cable um has this earth on the outside. Well, nearly every cable. 99.9%.

23:08We'll not go into the exceptions. Um.

24:54Guys, I'm sorry. You still there, guys? Very sorry about that. Pressed the bloody wrong button. Is everyone still here, guys? I'm really sorry. I went to change something and pressed the X on top of the web browser. So, schoolboy error. Um is everyone still there? Please tell me you are. I'm so sorry.

25:23Cool. Sorry, I'm back, persisting. It's a, it's a web browser-based system, so I clicked the X on top of the web browser and um, and closed it. So, I'm still getting used to it, guys. That's my excuse. Right, so we were talking um about the earth, okay, around the cable.

25:45So, if we look at this one because it's easy to see, guys. The, the electricity is on these phases inside, okay? However, to touch that phase, hopefully you can see where I'm pointing at, guys, yeah? To touch that phase where the electric is, what do I have to pass through first?

26:00Imagine this cable's buried and intact, obviously. To touch this, I have to pass through this. Same with all of them. Okay? So, it doesn't matter what tool you're using. It could be a, a digger bucket, um a jackhammer blade, you could be knocking a pin in the ground. If you imagine

26:17that this is my tool, if you like, whatever that might be, it's got to physically penetrate that earth, and then whilst it's in contact with that earth, it then hits the phase. Can you see that?

26:30Earth first, then phase. So, where's the current going to go? Think what we talked about. Path of least resistance. The current is going to go that way, okay? Understand that, guys, yeah? That's the best path. So, in other words, you could get a bare metal bar with no insulation on it, and you could put it through a cable, and the likelihood is you still wouldn't get electrocuted because the current would sooner go that way than through your body. We don't do any practical tests on that, guys. And that's why, guys, if you've any experience with this, doing these training courses for so many years,

27:00I'm often told stories, loads and loads of stories of cable strikes. And, and the one that I've heard hundreds of times is, "We had a guy on site and he had a pin and he hammered it through a cable, and it was a miracle he wasn't electrocuted." It's not a miracle, it's just the way that um these cables work. Now, I want to be clear here, guys, I'm not saying you wouldn't get injured, okay?

27:20All right, because you, you'd probably get burned, so we're going to talk about that now and why this explosion happens and where this fire comes from. So, let's just go back to my slide without losing you again.

27:35So, we've, we've, we've penetrated this cable. And what in a sense what we've done is we've caused a short circuit between the, the, the phase and the earth. Okay. If you hit the cable really hard, you could cause it between, between multiple um, multiple phases.

27:52When you, when you cause that short circuit in the cable, you start off a chain reaction and a sequence of events. And the first thing that happens is you get a massive increase of current at the point of impact. So, we get this sudden surge of current. When we get a build-up of current on this cable, we then get a build-up of temperature, so the cable gets very, very hot. I'm going to give you some figures now, guys.

28:12A normal LV cable, when you cause a short circuit on it, can get up to a temperature of 19,500 degrees C. And, and to put that into perspective, the surface of the sun is about 5,000 degrees C. So, four times hotter than the surface of the sun is how hot one of these cables can get. That's why you may have seen holes burned out of buckets, shovels, tooling, that kind of stuff. The heat is incredible. So, increase of current, increase of temperature. What happens when something gets hot? In particular, what happens to its size? It gets bigger. I'm sure you've all heard of this. You heat something up, it expands. And the problem we have with an underground cable is that it does it rapidly. So, it goes from normal temperature to 19,500 degrees C in less than a second. So, the expansion you get is a rapid expansion. It's incredible, and it causes a pressure wave.

28:40hot, in particular what happens to its size. It gets bigger. I'm sure you've all heard of this. You heat something up, it expands. And the problem we have with an underground cable is that it does it rapidly. So it goes from normal temperature to 9.5 thousand degrees C in less than a second. So the expansion you get is a rapid expansion. It's incredible, and it causes a pressure wave. You may sometimes hear stories where somebody'll say they've hit a cable and then been blown out of the hole.

29:06And it's nothing to do with, um, electric shock. It's the pressure wave caused by it. We often refer to underground cables as unexploded bombs, and there's a lot of truth in that. The reaction is the same as a bomb. Um, all a bomb is is combustible material, you ignite it, and it gets hot very, very quickly and expands. And if you've ever watched these movies with bombs going off, I'm sure you can imagine the pressure wave that you can, you can often see.

29:29So, short circuit, current shoots up, temperature shoots up, the whole thing expands. There's your explosion. Dictionary definition of the word explosion is simply rapid expansion, which is exactly what we're getting when we hit an underground cable. Uh, one of the worst cables to hit, guys, is a copper-core cable. The, the problem with copper is that, um, for a metal, it boils at quite a low temperature. So, you know, things go from a solid to a liquid to a gas when you heat them up.

29:56Um, copper melts, turns to liquid, at about 1,000 degrees C. At 2.5 thousand degrees C, it turns to gas, it boils. And the problem with that is that when you do boil copper, when it vaporizes, its mass expands by 67,000 times. So, a piece of copper that big will get 67,000 times bigger when you, when, when you hit it, basically. Does that all make sense, guys? Chat's gone quiet, so I'm hoping you're still there. I always worry when the chat goes quiet, but is everyone with me so far, guys?

30:28You still tuned in? Still listening?

30:38Yeah, cool. Everyone's still there. Right. So, that's the explosion we get. So, just to summarize, this is the point I'm trying to make. A very long-winded one, I admit. If I get, if you watch my little thumbnail where my head is now, if I get this bare metal bar and put it through a cable, I probably won't get electrocuted, but I probably will get burnt.

30:57If I get an insulated metal bar and put it through a cable, I probably won't get electrocuted, but I'd still get burnt. That's the point I'm trying to make, guys. Insulated handles or not, you are still causing a short circuit within that cable, which will explode and it will burn you. Okay?

31:14So, let's look at some underground cables going off then now, guys. You remember that, that, uh, picture? I said it was taken from an old video. Okay, here's a little video clip of that.

31:49I don't know if anybody's seen that before, guys.

31:57This one's not quite as dramatic. This was, I think this was in Romania, guys, of an excavator working.

32:15Sorry, guys. Excuse me a second.

32:25Next one for you. This is, um, CCTV footage, um, from, from, from Manchester, uh, Stockport. I don't know if anybody's seen this one before, guys. Uh, if you look at the top right, you've got, um, two guys.

32:41They're basically going to relocate that column. They're digging a new hole, um, to, to move the column. There's no barriers, no, no CAT and Genny, no plans. People walking right past them. They were lucky they didn't hurt anybody else, as you can see there. Um, he's come across something hard, a piece of rock or concrete he can't shift, which is why he's kind of bent down with his hand in there. And then there is the portable breaker here.

33:09That's a little box is there, guys. So, we've still got the hand tools at the moment, still having a feel around what, what's in there. Um, he's now decided that the best thing to do is to get the, uh, breaker, get the jackhammer. See how deep it goes when he puts it in.

33:31It's gone so deep that he's, um, he's got to kneel down to pull the trigger.

33:49Look at it when it zooms in. Look at the speed of this. He doesn't even get a chance to pull his head back out of the way.

34:03He spent three months in hospital after that, guys. The explosion's incredible.

34:12I'm sure some of you will have seen this one. This has been, um, doing the rounds quite a bit recently. This was outside the House of Lords in Westminster. See all that molten metal and stuff that's coming through, through, from that? Look at the V-shape above his head, and it gives you an idea of how much his face is taking, is taken the impact of that. Full force of that in his face. I don't know how he manages to get up from this.

34:57See all these, all these trousers and stuff all ripped off him and things. One of the biggest causes of, uh, major injury, life-changing injury, and even death on underground cables is breathing that, um, that flame in. And, um, you might have heard about this. In every human, we have an instinct in us called the fight or flight instinct. When something frightens us, that instinct kicks in, and the first thing that your body does is take a deep breath.

35:18It's kind of involuntary, and it's your body's way of filling up with, um, oxygen ready for your next move. Where you'll have seen this in, in real life is if you ever jumped out and frightened someone, they kind of do that. So, you, you breathe all that in. It's quite nasty stuff.

35:32This was a jackhammer blade when it went through a cable. These are quite old pictures now, guys. You may have seen them. Look at the metal that's missing there from that blade. And that was the guy that was, that was using it.

35:47And this, this guy here cut through a cable using that steel saw. He was under the impression it was dead, and clearly it wasn't. That was his face.

36:00And then this is the actual video of him doing it, guys. Um, just go to the next one. You can see him in there at the moment with that steel saw, and you'll see what happens when he, when he cuts through that cable.

36:15See the explosion there. Blows him back out of that out of that hole.

36:31This one was again a recent one. This this is kind of after the event. This guy had hit a cable, um, in London. Yo, you need help, man. You need help.

36:47Fuck. Stay there, stay there. They're coming, they're coming. You see all the skin hanging off his hands and, oh, it's just really nasty stuff.

37:07Don't pour no water on him, yo. You're alright, you're alright. You're alright, you're alright. No, don't try to walk. There you go.

37:26Just to finish off, guys, we're almost at the end now. Um, one final point I want to make, an important one, is that low voltage cables are just as dangerous as high voltage cables. Um, where I often see it on sites where people take more care with HV, um, but LV is just as deadly when it comes to LV in terms of the explosion. And the reason for it is, if you look at the slide, you'll see we've got a circuit breaker on the left,

37:51which is what we use to protect a HV system, and on the right we've got a fuse, a cartridge fuse. Um, and the difference between the two is the reaction time. Um, a HV circuit breaker trips out very, very quickly. Um, an LV fuse takes longer. If you remember we've we've talked about this, we've talked about how the cable explodes, the build-up of current and energy and the expansion, and the longer we give it, the bigger the bang. And fuses can give it that little bit longer.

38:15So we need to treat them both equally from a safety point of view, that LV is just as deadly and we can get just as big explosions off an LV cable. So guys, that was my short presentation on what happens if you hit a cable. Um, I hope you found it interesting. Chuck me some feedback in the comments. Did you get something from that, guys? Since it's only a short one today.

38:35Um, but I hope that was useful for you. Sorry for accidentally disconnecting halfway through it. I'm also very tired today as well. It's been a couple of long days, so I wasn't thinking quite straight. But hopefully that's been useful for you guys and you've got something from it.

39:04Great stuff, guys. No questions either, I guess, so. Okay, guys, well, hopefully see you on the next ones that we're running.

39:24I'm going to get home now. My wife's been home with the kids all all week, homeschooling, so I need to go and do my shift, so I'm going to head home. Thanks a lot, Dale. I appreciate that. Thanks for the feedback.

39:40Okay, guys, um, have a have a great evening and, um, I'll see you all again sometime. Take care. Bye-bye.